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PRESENTER- Foreign Minister of Türkiye, Hakan Fidan, thank you for talking to Al Jazeera.

FOREIGN MINISTER HAKAN FİDAN- Thank you for having me.

PRESENTER- Foreign Minister, you’ve said the Damascus–SDF ceasefire must hold during the ISIS prisoner transfers. So far, it has been violated from time to time; however, it's largely still holding on. What is Türkiye doing, in practical terms, to prevent it from collapsing?

FOREIGN MINISTER HAKAN FİDAN- Well, I think the understanding that has been reached between two parties, SDF and the Damascus government, I think it's very significant and important. In principle, as Türkiye, whatever the parties are, they reach an understanding, we support it. Because as long as they agree on certain principles, I think it is worth supporting in our view. But we have our own concerns, our own red lines regarding Turkish national security interests. Nevertheless, when Damascus government engages in an agreement with SDF, it is usually observed. But coming back to the current situation, I think just like you said, the ceasefire is holding, and it is allowing the American forces to transfer ISIS prisoners from Syria to Iraq. I think this is a significant development. I think everybody should help this. And as Türkiye, we are trying to do our best to really facilitate this together with the Americans.

PRESENTER- But, Minister, you recently said that SDF, that is, Türkiye's current position, as far as I understand, that SDF cannot remain as a military force. But will Ankara accept any Kurdish-led police structure for local order, or are you seeking a complete disarmament, including light armed policing?

FOREIGN MINISTER HAKAN FİDAN- SDF is essentially an extension of PKK in Syria, and PKK has four branches in four countries: in Syria, in Iraq, in Iran, and in Türkiye. So, they have objectives for four countries. But in Syria, what we

want from them, we really value Syrian Kurds. They should be treated quite fairly, and the PKK in the past has recruited and mobilized many hundred people and deployed them in Syria together with SDF. They are non-Syrians, and they are now in Syria. And their sole objective is to hurt Turkish national security interests. And we really want this gone. This is number one. The second thing is we don't want to see, it's not very well known by the world public, that not only the Kurdish PKK elements from other countries, but also the Turkish leftist elements inside Syria under the places controlled by SDF are given shelter and place to operate against Türkiye. Up to 300 people armored people, they are there. They are members of Turkish leftist organizations, and their sole job is to look for opportunities to attack Turkish military and security forces. We know all of them, and they know all of this. And we also want this gone. The rest should be dealt with under the sovereign and unitary state principles between parties. I think in any sovereign and unitary state, you wouldn't want to see two armies. Of course, there has to be one army, one single army commanded by one single authority. So, this is what should happen. In terms of police forces and other things, I think it can be arranged between Damascus and SDF. We don't want to go into that much micromanagement. We are quite well aware of our own sensitivities and I think what we want from SDF and the other parties is quite doable.

PRESENTER- Syria used to be a major point of tension for over the course of a decade between the United States and Türkiye. Now it looks like an area of cooperation. What changed — U.S. policy, the U.S. President, or both?

FOREIGN MINISTER HAKAN FİDAN- Well, first of all, what Mr. Trump is trying to do as foreign policy objectives, I think, is making quite a difference. And first of all, what is, you know, what he's trying to do in terms of bringing a ceasefire in Gaza is quite something that we support. We are cooperating. What he's trying to do in Ukraine is to stop a war between Russia and Ukraine, consequently between Europe and Russia. I think this is something that we really value. And coming to Syria, I think our perspectives largely overlap. And the Trump administration would like to see the new Syrian administration is taking care of its own problems and be

a responsible member of the international community. I think the government in Damascus is responding quite well to the demands of the international and regional community. The countries of the region and the international community, they are cooperating in helping Syria to heal its own wounds. There are two things, as you know, for the last, unfortunately, 14 years that the entire world and the region have been getting. One is mass migration. The refugees, millions of them were coming out of Syria. And the other one is terrorism. Ahmed Sharaa was in Washington, D.C., as you know, he put a signature on the Charter that made him a part of the International Coalition against ISIS. I think this is something very meaningful to get the new government, in institutional terms, to be part of the Coalition against ISIS. That is important. But when it comes to the problem with SDF, there are sometimes disagreements between Americans and Damascus. And I think we, Americans, and the Syrians, are having extensive discussions to smoothly sort out this problem.

PRESENTER- Moving on to Gaza. Several European major countries declined to join the “Peace Board,” saying it is vague and could potentially undermine UN mechanisms. Why did Türkiye join it?

FOREIGN MINISTER HAKAN FİDAN- For us, Gaza Peace Plan was first introduced to address the Gaza issue. Now Board of Peace, as an extension of all the process… when it was started on September 25th last year, during the UNGA meeting in New York, eight Muslim countries’ leaders came together with President Trump to find a way of solving genocide in Gaza. I think that was the real beginning, and the birthplace of 20-point Gaza peace plan. So, since that day, there has been a continuous process, whether in the form of exchanging views or creating institutions, reaching the agreements. Now, we have completed the first phase of the ceasefire, and we think that Board of Peace is a platform where we can really advance agenda for Gaza.

PRESENTER- If Hamas, as part of the second phase, is completely disarmed as the US and Israel demand, then what mechanism would actually deter Israel from violating Palestinian rights or the future agreements? What will be the guarantee that Israel will abide by rules?

FOREIGN MINISTER HAKAN FİDAN- In military terms, Hamas has never been a deterrent factor against Israel because there is no match between Israeli military power, supported by the American military power and the Hamas military power. Although Hamas was resisting against occupation, it is not deterring. You know, at best it can be a disturbing factor for Israel, but it cannot be a deterrent factor. Hamas security forces was good enough to run the entire Gaza and to provide local security and policing. But when it comes to deterring Israel, you know, Israel was and has always been in a position that whenever they would like to do a military operation they were conducting.

PRESENTER- Regardless of Hamas military presence, is there still a plan to create a mechanism that could deter Israel from violating the agreements?

FOREIGN MINISTER HAKAN FİDAN- One of the provisions is suggesting the creation of ISF, International Stabilization Force. You know, this is important. If that can be implemented, I think it will help both Israel and the Palestinians to make sure that nobody is attacking the other party, and there is no risk of violating the security agreements. That would be a new chapter in Palestinian question.

PRESENTER- So, you were talking about International Stabilization Force, will Türkiye contribute to troops in Gaza as a part of International Stabilization Force despite Israeli opposition?

FOREIGN MINISTER HAKAN FİDAN- Well again, it is subject to comprehensive negotiations. As you know, Mr. Netanyahu has been objecting to Türkiye’s participation to Board of Peace. We have been invited and we participated and inclusion of my name into Gaza Executive Committee and yet we are there. Because we are, together with Egypt, Qatar and United States, we are core members of mediation group. So, our present position is to make whatever possible to contribute to ongoing peace process in Gaza, whether humanitarian form, whether military form, whether political form. Now, if we are asked, we are ready to provide military units to ISF.

PRESENTER- So, just briefly, is there any realistic path to restoring a full Türkiye - Israel political normalization, or is the rupture now structural?

FOREIGN MINISTER HAKAN FİDAN- Well, when we, you know, entered the recent episode of relations between Türkiye and Israel, you know, we made it very clear when we were cutting the trade with Israel, we made it very clear: As long as the war continues and no humanitarian assistance is allowed to enter in Gaza, no, we will not restart our trade. It tells something. Our problem is not with Israel, our problem is with the Israeli policies in the region, especially towards the Palestinians, and the recent one, especially the genocide in Gaza.

PRESENTER- So, you think that the rupture is not structural, but conditional?

FOREIGN MINISTER HAKAN FİDAN: Yes, conditional.

PRESENTER- So, moving on to Iran-US tensions. You just recently warned that Israel may be looking for an opportunity to strike Iran. What indicators are you basing that assessment on? And also, what do you think such an attack would aim to achieve? Deterrence, degradation or regime change?

FOREIGN MINISTER HAKAN FİDAN- I think the primary objective of Israel would be to destroy some of critical capabilities of Iranian military.

PRESENTER- So, they are not after a regime change?

FOREIGN MINISTER HAKAN FİDAN- Well, they would like to do that, but I don't know if they can do it because it is up to the people, it is not up to the outside military intervention, and the Iranian people at the time of war and attack from outside, especially coming from Israel, they always unite around their leaders.

PRESENTER- But when you said Israel may be looking for an opportunity to strike Iran, was that based on your reading of the situation or there were some indicators…

FOREIGN MINISTER HAKAN FİDAN- Well, I don't want to go into the details of how I reached these assessments. Anybody who is judging what happened during the 12-day war, I think can easily reach these understandings. And I don't want to do more military elaboration. But one thing that I want to say on this subject is: it's wrong to attack on Iran, it's wrong to start the war again. Iran is ready to negotiate on nuclear file again. My advice always to the American friends: close the files one by one with Iran. Start with nuclear and close it; then the other, then the

other… I mean, if you put them as a package, all of them, it will be very difficult for our Iranian friends to digest and to really process it and to go through this. And sometimes it might seem humiliating for them, it will be very difficult to explain not only to themselves but to the leadership. So, if we can make things better tolerated, I think it will help.

PRESENTER- Foreign Minister, some analysts argue that a new regional order is emerging where the U.S. works mainly with the strong central states while sidelining the non-state actors. So, where does Iran fit or where should it fit in that picture? No place for Hamas, no place for SDF, no place for Hezbollah, no place for proxies… But where does Iran fit in that picture?

FOREIGN MINISTER HAKAN FİDAN- Well, Iran actually can fit in a perfect place. I'm not talking about the current state scope, but the ability and capability that Iran can perform. When I was in Iran, you know, two months ago, I was very frank with my Iranian friends because they need to create trust in the region. They need to pay attention how they are perceived by the regional countries, because they are not going anywhere, we are not going anywhere. Why this is important? Because no matter what our different ideologies and regimes and sectarians and everything else within the nation states system, we have to know how to cooperate and how to work together in our region.

PRESENTER- So, you encourage them for more regional cooperation.

FOREIGN MINISTER HAKAN FİDAN- Yes, but to be able to do so, they need to give up on certain practices, certain policies.

PRESENTER- When talking about the regional arrangements or regional engagement… so, after the Israeli strike on Doha, many questioned the reliability of the U.S. security umbrella. So, do you believe now the Gulf and the region need their own security arrangements?

FOREIGN MINISTER HAKAN FİDAN- Yes, they need. They need not because to be deterrent against any threat, they need to create the fundamental and ultimate trust between themselves.

PRESENTER- So, it is about trust building rather than deterrence.

FOREIGN MINISTER HAKAN FİDAN- Absolutely. I mean, deterrence would come only second. Because when you engage, commit yourself to someone else's security, that is the ultimate trust. So, the problem in our region: Lack of trust between nation states in the region. So, if we manage to increase the trust between nations, it will help bring stabilization, peace, no domination, no Turkish domination, no Arab domination, no Farsi domination, no other domination… The regional countries are coming together, acting responsibly… Look at how European Union has managed to form itself from scratch to today. Why not us?

PRESENTER- Last year, Saudi Arabia and Pakistan signed a massive defense pact. And as now, Türkiye is preparing to join it. What kind of shared threat perception compelled you to come together? And do you believe some other countries in the region will also follow the case and join this defense pact?

FOREIGN MINISTER HAKAN FİDAN- Well, I think any pact in the region should be more inclusive. This is important. Otherwise, we don't want to be divisive. We don't want to create another camp. We want to create a regional solidarity platform. This should be the objective. It can start with 2-3 countries, but in due course, if it evolves into something all encompassing, you know, including all most of the countries of the region, that would be ideal and that would serve the ultimate purpose.

PRESENTER- But what was the shared threat perception that compelled you to come together?

FOREIGN MINISTER HAKAN FİDAN- Well, first of all, we saw that in the absence of regional solidarity, we always need a hegemon. When hegemon comes to sort out the problems, most of the time when they leave, things they leave behind is worse than when they came. And secondly, they ask for the invoice. You've got to pay them.

PRESENTER- It comes with a cost.

FOREIGN MINISTER HAKAN FİDAN- Big cost. Plus, it is not also serving the national interests of the hegemon, either. We have seen this in the case of United States and other hegemons in the region. So, we have got to be able to sort out our

own problems, we have to show regional ownership. That requires a certain degree of solidarity and institutionalization. When you are talking about institutionalization, it also dictates you to establish some pacts and platforms. So, in order not to need a hegemon to come and sort your problems, you have got to be able to sort your own problems.

PRESENTER- So, you shouldn't be outsourcing your security.

FOREIGN MINISTER HAKAN FİDAN- Absolutely.

PRESENTER- Regarding Ukraine, how close do you think we are to a settlement in Ukraine? And realistically, what role can Türkiye play?

FOREIGN MINISTER HAKAN FİDAN- Well, I think we are close as ever to a possible peace agreement comparing to the previous engagements in terms of the inclusion of all the parties, major European countries, the United States, and to a certain extent, Russia. I think one or two outstanding issues are now being worked out by the parties. I am in constant communication with the relevant sides, because Türkiye has played a big role in many aspects of the ceasefire talks. We facilitated the talks; we facilitated an exchange of prisoners and other humanitarian affairs. You know, for the last four years, while the war was going on, I think that there was a need to have discussions, talks between the parties. Türkiye saw this need and as part of our foreign policy objective to see this ceasefire in Ukraine, we gladly facilitated those things. But right now, after Mr. Trump’s coming to power, his work to bring the ceasefire, I think, is working. I don't know if we could reach the ultimate goal, but I don't see why not. It requires a little bit more creativity from the parties, because there are certain issues related to the land, you know, that cannot be easily addressed. And the other issues, I think security guarantees and related issues, have already been agreed to a certain extent. As you know, any peace agreement between Russia and Ukraine will not only be between Russia and Ukraine. It will be also between Europe and Russia. It will also redefine the economic relations, trade relations between Russia and the United States, between Russia and Europe. It will be...

PRESENTER- Then, it actually comes to the friction within the Western camp now. If that is not going to be just a deal between the two parties and if there are multiple parties involved in this peace settlement process. So, with the growing tensions between the United States and Europe over Greenland, the role of NATO, Russia, Ukraine and the nature of relations with China, are you concerned about the Alliance's future?

FOREIGN MINISTER HAKAN FİDAN- Of NATO?

PRESENTER- Of NATO, and as a whole, the Western camp, can they unite and come with a unified position?

FOREIGN MINISTER HAKAN FİDAN- Well, that's a big issue within the Transatlantic community now, because the Russia-Ukraine war and the changing position of the United States was only one issue. But now, we are seeing other issues adding up for this debate. You know the America’s possible disengagement from European security structure is a major concern for Europeans and not only what's happening in Ukraine-Russia war, the changing American position, but also disengagement. And the Greenland issue is also a problem. And the tariffs are creating another set of problems.

PRESENTER- As a part of this question, just some major European countries now speak openly about the self-reliant European security order.

FOREIGN MINISTER HAKAN FİDAN- Yes.

PRESENTER- And so, is this, according to you, an alternative to the U.S. led

NATO? And what would Türkiye’s role be in it?

FOREIGN MINISTER HAKAN FİDAN- Well, NATO is, of course, I think a primary framework of cooperation on security for the Transatlantic community. As long as it can function, I think it serves the purpose of both European, American and Transatlantic security. But if we are divided among ourselves, the United States and Europe, I think Europe needs to in any way increase their defense capacity. In the defense industry area, the European Union is taking some measures, SAFE is one of them. But what we are suggesting, maybe the United Kingdom, Türkiye, some major European countries coming together and having quality discussions

about what would be the new security architecture of Europe and what would increase our resilience, strength and deterrence capabilities. Because, what's happening right now is, unless we have a collective good security capability here in the region, we will be orbiting through the different powers, centers of gravity. We can create our own center of gravity in this region. If the UK, Türkiye, France, Germany and major European countries can really make their own decisions, and we don't need to be drifted away to either Transatlantic or China or Russia… We can have, of course, high quality cooperation with those major powers. Either we will continue with and expect the American security umbrella protecting Europe and the EU forever or if you think that if it is gone, you need to come up with your own center of gravity. We need to create safety, security for everybody in the region.

PRESENTER- Foreign Minister of Türkiye, Hakan Fidan, thank you for talking to us.

FOREIGN MINISTER HAKAN FİDAN- Thank you for having me. Thank you.